tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29566846.post5332111270723948127..comments2023-11-05T01:45:58.784-07:00Comments on The Hesperado: I Struck Gold! Second Addendum to Primary Sources 101Hesperadohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10394374828751466705noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29566846.post-14335225804470985142009-06-16T02:00:24.576-07:002009-06-16T02:00:24.576-07:00Thanks Anonymous, I'm not sure I want to downl...Thanks Anonymous, I'm not sure I want to download something just to be able to see comments -- it's easy enough to just scroll, as long as I remember to do it.Hesperadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10394374828751466705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29566846.post-57230288247359717532009-06-15T10:16:14.461-07:002009-06-15T10:16:14.461-07:00(and technically I have no way of knowing when a n...<i>(and technically I have no way of knowing when a new [comment] appears until I actually scroll down).</i><br /><br />It is possible to check this using the following RSS feed (works well in IE8 and Firefox without any hassle):<br /><br /><a href="http://hesperado.blogspot.com/feeds/comments/default" rel="nofollow">http://hesperado.blogspot.com/feeds/comments/default</a>.<br /><br />A similar link for posts is the following:<br /><br /><a href="http://hesperado.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default" rel="nofollow">http://hesperado.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default</a>.<br /><br />(Obviously, one may replace "hesperado" in "hesperado.blogspot.com" with any other blog under the blogspot.com domain, e.g. "gatesofvienna.blogspot.com").Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03076780315288867714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29566846.post-40844510731855814242009-06-14T15:07:44.461-07:002009-06-14T15:07:44.461-07:00I hadn't seen this comment by "Kuni"...I hadn't seen this comment by "Kuni" until just now, as I have been remiss in checking my older essays for new comments (and technically I have no way of knowing when a new one appears until I actually scroll down).<br /><br />"Kuni" wrote:<br /><br /><i>You are conveniently overlooking the fact that the sociopathic liars you mention: Hugh Fitzgerald, Raymond Ibrahim, Robert Spencer, Andrew Bostom, Daniel Pipes, Pamela Geller, Michelle Malkin, Baron Bodissey, Fjordman; are trying to pass this “quote” off as coming from Jefferson/Adams themselves.</i><br /><br />The tendentious and irrelevant language aside, "Kuni" is just plain wrong. Here's one example of one of the "sociopathic liars" on his list -- Raymond Ibrahim. In this article on the Barbary Pirates, Ibrahim quotes Melvin E. Lee, who wrote:<br /><br />"Jefferson related a conversation he had in Paris with Ambassador Abdrahaman of Tripoli, who told him that all Christians are sinners in the context of the Koran and that it was a Muslim’s “right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to enslave as many as they could take as prisoners.”<br /><br />Thus, the allegation of "Kuni" about Ibrahim is flat wrong. He, through his source Melvin E. Lee, is not imputing the words to Jefferson, but is specifically contextualizing the words as belonging to the Muslim ambassador.<br /><br />http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/025730.php<br /><br />Similarly, upon examination of a Hugh Fitzgerald article on the same subject, we see him also properly attributing the words not to Jefferson or Adams, but to the Muslim ambassador:<br /><br />"...they [Jefferson and Adams] asked the ambassador, Mr. Adja, why the Muslims of the Maghrib, the “Barbary pirates” as they were known in the West, did as they did.<br /><br />"He had no trouble answering them, as the report written by Jefferson and Adams to the Continental Congress shows:<br /><br /><i>...that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise.</i> "<br /><br />http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/011325.php<br /><br />"Kuni" himself is either a sociopathic liar, or incredibly sloppy in his investigations. Or, of course, both.Hesperadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10394374828751466705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29566846.post-81750729273750981302009-06-08T13:15:50.436-07:002009-06-08T13:15:50.436-07:00You are conveniently overlooking the fact that the...You are conveniently overlooking the fact that the sociopathic liars you mention: Hugh Fitzgerald, Raymond Ibrahim, Robert Spencer, Andrew Bostom, Daniel Pipes, Pamela Geller, Michelle Malkin, Baron Bodissey, Fjordman; are trying to pass this “quote” off as coming from Jefferson/Adams themselves.<br /><br />When in fact Jefferson/Adams were merely repeating what a single negotiator, who just also happened to be the enemy’s ambassador, had told them in a response to an inquiry by them.Kunihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14081314866662984527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29566846.post-65091024263013760802009-04-30T17:44:00.000-07:002009-04-30T17:44:00.000-07:00Funny, Kinana. John Adams became Vice-President 3...Funny, Kinana. John Adams became Vice-President 3 years later (1789), then later, in 1797, became the second President (after George Washington).<br /><br />In that letter I referred to, Adams also remarked that he ordinarily didn't like to smoke at all, but he went ahead and did so anyway so as not to give any reason for his host to be offended. The editor (Boyd) of the Jefferson Papers in a footnote said that elsewhere, Adams had some pretty harshly critical observations about the ambassador and the Maghreb Muslims in general.Hesperadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10394374828751466705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29566846.post-86208412846922344942009-04-30T16:04:00.000-07:002009-04-30T16:04:00.000-07:00amazing stuff. i really chuckled!
Was Adams Pres...amazing stuff. i really chuckled!<br /><br />Was Adams President at the time?!<br /><br />Did he inhale?!Kinanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08746811949428887333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29566846.post-41124808095842418642009-04-30T15:39:00.000-07:002009-04-30T15:39:00.000-07:00P.S.: During the approximately 90 minutes I was a...P.S.: During the approximately 90 minutes I was at the library thumbing through one volume after another from two multi-volume sets of Jefferson papers, I stumbled across a letter from John Adams in which he had met with that same Muslim ambassador in London at a date prior to the more famous meeting with Jefferson also present. At that prior meeting (I'm just typing now from memory -- I did not actually take notes on this), Adams describes how the ambassador insisted that Adams sit on the floor and smoke tobacco from a giant houkka (water pipe) and also to drink very strong coffee. After Adams had taken a couple of puffs off the pipe, he reported that the ambassador's underlings exulted, and said excitedly to Adams "Now you are a Turk!"Hesperadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10394374828751466705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29566846.post-14833541472807475552009-04-30T13:48:00.000-07:002009-04-30T13:48:00.000-07:00Thanks Blode,
I had long given up on Wikipedia an...Thanks Blode,<br /><br />I had long given up on Wikipedia and don't consult it anymore, but I'm glad you linked this particular one, as it inspired me to write a complete essay on their inadequacy with regard to this quote:<br /><br />http://hesperado.blogspot.com/2009/04/primary-sources-101-and-pseudopedia.html<br /><br />Just quickly to answer your specific question on that added detail about pirates boarding ships etc., I can't remember if that was in the Boyd edition I found. My focus at the time was on the "money quote" -- an actual Muslim diplomat calmly and matter-of-factly telling Jefferson and Adams that piracy is legitimate because it's based on the Koran and Sunna (the Sunna being the "Laws of the Prophet") -- so if it was there, I decided to leave it out.<br /><br />In the above linked essay, I go into more detail on all this.<br /><br />Thanks again,<br />HesperadoHesperadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10394374828751466705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29566846.post-28424687235731610352009-04-29T23:10:00.000-07:002009-04-29T23:10:00.000-07:00P.S. Do you regard the version at Wikipedia to be ...P.S. Do you regard the version at <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War#Background_and_overview" REL="nofollow">Wikipedia</A> to be inaccurate? It goes on about the Muslims fighting with a dagger in each hand, etc. - I was wondering if that was in the Jefferson original.B322https://www.blogger.com/profile/18257802768718375656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29566846.post-67411895905524308642009-04-29T22:56:00.000-07:002009-04-29T22:56:00.000-07:00Hats off, Erich. Primary-source research can be f...Hats off, Erich. Primary-source research can be frustrating and quite rewarding - I find something like that in a dusty tome in a library I want to run around telling all the other patrons what I've found - as if they would appreciate it!<br /><br />If I see anybody misquoting this I will set them straight.B322https://www.blogger.com/profile/18257802768718375656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29566846.post-75371568240817054802009-04-26T19:53:00.000-07:002009-04-26T19:53:00.000-07:00Yes, that ultimatum delivered to the Persian Emper...Yes, that ultimatum delivered to the Persian Emperor which the hadith you quoted refers to was also extensively described by a Muslim historian Al-Tabari (writing about 300 years afterward, in approximately 923 A.D.).<br /><br />While the Tripoli ambassador's remarks to Jefferson & Adams don't represent the ultimatum aspect, only the legitimacy of attacking Infidels (and the reward for it), it's basically the same thing. The implication is clear that the Muslims will stop attacking the Infidels and stop expecting extortion money, if the Infidels simply convert to Islam. If Jefferson or Adams had thought to ask him another probing question along this line, the ambassador would have clarified that to him, I'm sure.<br /><br />I analyzed Tabari's ultimatum in the context of an early Western historian who showed signs of PC MC as far back as 1849:<br /><br /><A HREF="http://hesperado.blogspot.com/2007/07/when-did-pc-begin-third-case-study.html" REL="nofollow">When Did PC Begin? Third Case Study</A>Hesperadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10394374828751466705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29566846.post-77155553568723220252009-04-26T14:41:00.000-07:002009-04-26T14:41:00.000-07:00Yes,
Friends - Davis
Battle – Davis
And no parag...Yes,<br /><br />Friends - Davis<br />Battle – Davis<br /><br />And no paragraphs. What you quoted as his source is what is in the book (as far as I can tell!).<br /><br />Also in this excellent book, Mr Davis mentioned earlier (p. 70) a hadith. What struck me was the consistency of the message, though they were delivered over a thousand years apart.<br /><br />Volume 4, Book 53, Number 386: <br /><br />Narrated Jubair bin Haiya: <br />'Umar [the second Caliph] sent the Muslims to the great countries to fight the pagans. …When we reached the land of the enemy, the representative of Khosrau [Persia] came out with forty-thousand warriors, and an interpreter got up saying, "Let one of you talk to me!" Al-Mughira replied, … Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute); and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: -- "Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master." …<br /><br />Take careKinanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08746811949428887333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29566846.post-26435617357419362902009-04-26T13:02:00.000-07:002009-04-26T13:02:00.000-07:00Thanks again Kinana.
I checked out Gregory Davis'...Thanks again Kinana.<br /><br />I checked out Gregory Davis's reference: it is basically another non-primary source, simply a blog that is repeating the quote without providing the primary source reference.<br /><br />Also, I see that his non-primary source, a blog called <I>USDOJ & Government Watch</I>, provides the quote containing a couple of other variances in addition to the "nation/nations" one you spotted:<br /><br />Gregory Davis's source's quote:<br /><br />“We took the liberty to make some inquiries concerning the Grounds of their pretensions to make war upon a Nation who had done them no Injury, and observed that we considered all mankind as our Friends who had done us no wrong, nor had given us any provocation. The Ambassador answered us that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise.”<br /><br />The primary source as provided by Boyd edition quoted in my article:<br /><br />"We took the liberty to make some inquiries concerning the Grounds of their pretentions to make war upon Nations who had done them no Injury, and observed that we considered all mankind as our friends who had done us no wrong, nor had given us any provocation."<br /><br />"The Ambassador answered us that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise."<br /><br />The variances are four (the first of each pair is Gregory Davis's source, the second is the Boyd edition):<br /><br />a Nation <br />Nations <br /><br />Friends<br />friends<br /><br />Battle<br />battle<br /><br />-- as well as the absence of a paragraph break in Davis's source's version.<br /><br />I know this may seem nitpicking to you, but could you tell me if Gregory Davis in his book has all these variances? I'd appreciate it, thanks,<br /><br />ErichHesperadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10394374828751466705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29566846.post-56408306534824463742009-04-26T04:54:00.000-07:002009-04-26T04:54:00.000-07:00Erich
the footnote reads:
'Adams and Jefferson, ...Erich<br /><br />the footnote reads:<br /><br />'Adams and Jefferson, "Quotes from the Founding Fathers" in USDOJ and Government Watch.'<br /><br />the bibliography reads:<br />same as above plus 'http://www.dojgov.net/Liberty_Watch.htm’<br /><br />On the matter of variances in original texts, part of the tripping-up tactics of Muslims is to castigate any failure of 100% of a quote of the Qur'an or hadith as some kind of gross deception and/or evidence that the other part of your argument is just as faulty, so I have been trained to do my best to get all quotes right!<br /><br />btw, you deserve a larger readership!<br /><br />Take careKinanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08746811949428887333noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29566846.post-86905050207954459962009-04-25T13:36:00.000-07:002009-04-25T13:36:00.000-07:00Thanks Kinana.
The variance in the Gregory Davis ...Thanks Kinana.<br /><br />The variance in the Gregory Davis book is interesting. To me, even one variance, no matter how little, is not acceptable -- unless, of course, the actual quote from the primary source is available out there to compare it with. But 99% of readers out there don't have access to the original and nobody but me, apparently, has bothered to track it down -- and my readership is minuscule. <br /><br />Even if I had a large readership, there still remains the problem of my credibility and trustworthiness, even if only on the matter of whether I was a careful transcriber of the quote I provided. But since I also provided the reference, anybody can go to their library (if it's a good library) and look it up and check it.<br /><br />I don't have Gregory Davis's book on hand -- can you tell me what reference he provides for that quote?<br /><br />Thanks againHesperadohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10394374828751466705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29566846.post-88203540240364307982009-04-25T03:45:00.000-07:002009-04-25T03:45:00.000-07:00Erich
What an excellent service to the counter jih...Erich<br />What an excellent service to the counter jihad movement!<br /><br />i first came across this quote from the Gregory Davis book 'Religion of Peace' p. 128.<br /><br />the only difference i see is the 'a Nation' and 'Nations'.<br /><br />your quote says <br />'to make war upon Nations' <br /><br />the 'Religion of Peace' quote says<br />'to make war upon a Nation' <br /><br />it helps clarify the more all encompassing nature of jihad.<br /><br />thanksKinanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08746811949428887333noreply@blogger.com